The surnames found on this page are some of those considered common amongst Melungeons and some of their 'cousin-groups' such as Red Bones, Carmel Indians of Ohio, the Guineas of WV, Turks and some Native American groups.
Not everyone with these names are Melungeon of course, and some Melungeon families will have other surnames because many Melungeon women 'out-married' carrying the genetics with them but not the surnames.
Not having one of these surnames in your lines, doesn't mean that you aren't Melungeon, just that you have found one of them YET!! :-)
COMMON MELUNGEON SURNAMES
Adams, Adkins, Allen, Allmond, Ashworth,
Barker, Barnes, Bass, Beckler, Bedgood, Bell, Bennett, Berry, Beverly, Biggs, Bolen/Bowlen/Bolling/Bowling, Boone, Bowman, Badby, Branham, Braveboy, Briger/Bridger, Brogan, Brooks, Brown, Bunch, Butler, Butters, Bullion, Burton, Buxton, Byrd,
Campell, Carrico, Carter, Casteel, Caudill, Chapman, Chavis, Clark, Cloud, Coal/Cole/Coles, Coffey, Coleman, Colley, Collier/Colyer, Collins, Collinsworth, Cook(e), Cooper, Cotman, Counts, Cox/Coxe, Criel, Croston, Crow, Cumba/Cumbo/Cumbow, Curry, Custalow,
Dalton, Dare, Davis, Denham, Dennis, Dial, Dorton, Doyle, Driggers, Dye, Dyess,
Ely, Epps, Evans, Fields, Freeman, French,
Gann, Garland, Gibbs, Gibson/Gipson, Goins/Goings, Gorvens, Gowan/Gowen, Graham, Green(e), Gwinn,
Hall, Hammon, Harmon, Harris, Harvie/Harvey, Hawkes, Hendricks/Hendrix, Hill, Hillman, Hogge, Holmes, Hopkins, Howe, Hyatt,
Jackson, James, Johnson, Jones,
Keith, Kennedy, Kiser,
Langston, Lasie, Lawson, Locklear, Lopes, Lowry, Lucas,
Maddox, Maggard, Major, Male/Mayle, Maloney, Marsh, Martin, Miles, Minard, Miner/Minor, Mizer, Moore, Morley, Mullins, Mursh,
Nash, Nelson, Newman, Niccans, Nickens (NA), Nichols, Noel, Norris,
Orr, Osborn/Osborne, Oxendine,
Page, Paine, Patterson, Perkins, Perry, Phelps, Phipps, Pinder, Polly, Powell, Powers, Pritchard, Pruitt,
Ramey, Rasnick, Reaves/Reeves, Revels, Richardson, Riddle, Roberson/Robertson/Robinson, Russell,
Sammons, Sampson, Sawyer, Scott, Sexton, Shavis, Shepherd/Shephard, Short, Sizemore, Smiling, Smith, Stallard, Stanley, Steel, Stevens, Stewart, Strother, Sweat/Swett, Swindall,
Tally, Taylor, Thompson, Tolliver, Tuppance, Turner,
Vanover, Vicars/Viccars/ Vickers,
Ware, Watts, Weaver, White, Whited, Wilkins, Williams, Williamson, Willis, Wisby, Wise, Wood, Wright, Wyatt, Wynn
Thursday, October 14, 2010
Who are the Melungeons Most Closely Related To?
Who are the Melungeons Most Closely Related To?
THE MELUNGEONS: THE PIONEERS of the INTERIOR SOUTHEASTERN UNITED STATES 1526-1997
by Eloy J. Gallegos
On p. 80 of the above text, Eloy Gallegos provides a Table giving the Mean Measure of Divergence (MMD) of Melungeons from Other Populations taken from a 1990 study by James L. Guthrie.
Gallegos notes that he asked Dr. A. F. Gallegos to comment on this study to which Dr. Gallogos stated (p.79) that, “Overall, I believe the gene frequency approach taken to resolve Melungeon origins is the best available given the limited funding and time available for the project, however, it is equally important to support gene frequency studies with historical, cultural, linguistic, and archaeological information which might be obtained from the Melungeon group. "
He continued, "finally, a study of human values, traits of this group...etc, world-view, religious aspirations, motivational traits, eccentric and habitual behavior, and idiosyncrasies could be used in support of establishing Melungeon origins when compared to other world population groups.”
A perfect match meaning that a person is to be considered absolutely pure blooded, would equal 0.000. I believe that the most distant match indicating no connection whatsoever would be 0.999.
POPULATIONMMD
Close Matches:
Libya(Tripoli*)0.017
Cyprus (Toodos-Greek)0.017
Malta*0.018
Canary Islands (Spanish)0.019
Italy (Veneto)0.022
Portugal0.024
Italy (Trentino)0.026
Spain (Galacia)0.027
U. S. Whites (Minnesota)+0.028
Ireland#0.029
Italy0.030
Sweden0.030
Libya (minusFezzan)0.030
Germany0.031
Britain0.031
Greece0.032
Netherlands0.032
Wales0.033
Corsica0.034
France0.035
Spain0.036U.
S. Whites0.036
England0.040
Sicily0.040
Iceland0.041
Northern Ireland0.042
Finland0.046
Sardinia0.051
Turkey0.053
Cyprus0.058
U.S. Blacks0.189
Distant Matches:
Gullas (Blacks South Carolina)0.222
Seminole, Oklahoma0.241
Cherokee0.256
Seminole, Florida0.308
*
The Arab/Berber (Moorish) component of the Spanish/Portugese of today.
+Probably Swedes. Could reflect the Moorish in Swedes.
# Married into Melungeon families in the S. E. U. S. Does not include Northern Ireland.
In spite of the close corrolation between the Turks and the Melungeons, Gallegos, who is of Spanish/Portugese extraction, does not agree with Dr. N. Brent Kennedy on Melungeon origins. His book is aimed toward the Spanish/Portugese expeditions prior to the establishment of the English on the American continent in 1607. In the * above, he says that the Moorish component came through the Spanish/Portugese whose genes combined with the Moors, rather than from that group of people themselves.
THE MELUNGEONS: THE PIONEERS of the INTERIOR SOUTHEASTERN UNITED STATES 1526-1997
by Eloy J. Gallegos
On p. 80 of the above text, Eloy Gallegos provides a Table giving the Mean Measure of Divergence (MMD) of Melungeons from Other Populations taken from a 1990 study by James L. Guthrie.
Gallegos notes that he asked Dr. A. F. Gallegos to comment on this study to which Dr. Gallogos stated (p.79) that, “Overall, I believe the gene frequency approach taken to resolve Melungeon origins is the best available given the limited funding and time available for the project, however, it is equally important to support gene frequency studies with historical, cultural, linguistic, and archaeological information which might be obtained from the Melungeon group. "
He continued, "finally, a study of human values, traits of this group...etc, world-view, religious aspirations, motivational traits, eccentric and habitual behavior, and idiosyncrasies could be used in support of establishing Melungeon origins when compared to other world population groups.”
A perfect match meaning that a person is to be considered absolutely pure blooded, would equal 0.000. I believe that the most distant match indicating no connection whatsoever would be 0.999.
POPULATIONMMD
Close Matches:
Libya(Tripoli*)0.017
Cyprus (Toodos-Greek)0.017
Malta*0.018
Canary Islands (Spanish)0.019
Italy (Veneto)0.022
Portugal0.024
Italy (Trentino)0.026
Spain (Galacia)0.027
U. S. Whites (Minnesota)+0.028
Ireland#0.029
Italy0.030
Sweden0.030
Libya (minusFezzan)0.030
Germany0.031
Britain0.031
Greece0.032
Netherlands0.032
Wales0.033
Corsica0.034
France0.035
Spain0.036U.
S. Whites0.036
England0.040
Sicily0.040
Iceland0.041
Northern Ireland0.042
Finland0.046
Sardinia0.051
Turkey0.053
Cyprus0.058
U.S. Blacks0.189
Distant Matches:
Gullas (Blacks South Carolina)0.222
Seminole, Oklahoma0.241
Cherokee0.256
Seminole, Florida0.308
*
The Arab/Berber (Moorish) component of the Spanish/Portugese of today.
+Probably Swedes. Could reflect the Moorish in Swedes.
# Married into Melungeon families in the S. E. U. S. Does not include Northern Ireland.
In spite of the close corrolation between the Turks and the Melungeons, Gallegos, who is of Spanish/Portugese extraction, does not agree with Dr. N. Brent Kennedy on Melungeon origins. His book is aimed toward the Spanish/Portugese expeditions prior to the establishment of the English on the American continent in 1607. In the * above, he says that the Moorish component came through the Spanish/Portugese whose genes combined with the Moors, rather than from that group of people themselves.
physical, behavioral, historical and genetic characteristics of Melungeons
This post was sent to our OLD Melungeon mailing list by Beth. I am placing it here for your perusal. It gives physical/behavorial characteristics etc of some Melungeon families:
Dear Melungeon Listers,
It would be very useful to have an operational definition of Melungeon
that met social science standards of validity, reliability and measurablity and
that was also compatible with the historic and current understandings of this
term.
As I view it, Melungeon refers to an Appalachian ethnic group with
distinct physical, behavioral, historical and genetic characteristics. These
characteristics served to set Melungeons apart from other peoples dwelling in
southeastern North America from the 1500's onward.
PHYSICALLY, Melungeons were distinct in appearance from the other major
ethnic groups familiar to persons living in the Southeastern United States
from 1500 onward.
Thus, they would have had observable physical features which served to set
them apart from those whose ancestry was primarily sub-Saharan African, Native
American, or Northern European. From the various historical and contemporary
sources used to describe Melungeon physical features, these would be dark
straight or wavy hair, dark (but not black ) skin, high cheekbones, and
Mediterranean facial features. While some specific Melungeons might vary from these
traits, the overall group appearance would necessarily be physically homogeneous
and distinct from persons in other ethnic groups.
BEHAVIORALLY, Melungeons had distinctive food preparation, food
preference and food consumption practices. They ate some highly spiced foods, did not
consume blood products, did consume onion and leek based vegetables, fried
breads and other items that appear to be somewhat consistent with Mediterranean
ancestry.
Many observed a one year mourning period for deceased loved ones,
buried loved ones on an east-west axis in private burial grounds, gathered in the
cemeteries of their deceased loved ones once a year to re-mound and decorate
their graves, and belonged to the Primitive Baptist religious denomination.
Some of the women wore black hair coverings. Several of the men wore full beards.
Marriages were often performed in the homes of the bride's parents, rather
than in churches.
Melungeons also displayed marked pattterns of endogamy, marrying
cousins, including first cousins, over an extended period of time (in some cases 400
years). These marriage patterns are consistent with historic and contemporary
Sephardic Jewish and Muslim behavior.
Naming patterns also served to demarcate Melungeon ethnicity. Given names included not only 'Old Testament' Hebrew names, BUT ALSO Aramaic, Arabic, non-Biblical Hebrew, Greek, Italian, Spanish
and Portuguese names. These naming patterns are observable from the 1600's onward.
GENETICALLY, Melungeons and their descendants were and are distinctive.
They do not have primarily Northern European, sub-Saharan African, Native
American, or East Asian haplotypes/haplogroups. Intead they primarily carry DNA
patterns typical of the Mediterranean, North Africa, Middle East and some
Central Asian and Indo-Pakistani populations.
Taken as a whole, the most parsimonious explanation for this set of Physical, Behavioral and
Genetic characteristics would appear to be a Sephardic Jewish and Muslim Moorish origin, likely
resulting from the historically documented expulsion of Jews and Muslims from various European,
Mediterranean and Central Asian countries from the 1500's onward, coupled with the establishment of
Spanish, Portuguese, British, French and Dutch settlements in North America post 1500.
It is also very likely that some persons of Melungeon descent would
have some sub-Saharan, Native American, Northern European or other (e.g.,
Roma) ancestry, as well, due to specific instances of exogamous marriage.
Dear Melungeon Listers,
It would be very useful to have an operational definition of Melungeon
that met social science standards of validity, reliability and measurablity and
that was also compatible with the historic and current understandings of this
term.
As I view it, Melungeon refers to an Appalachian ethnic group with
distinct physical, behavioral, historical and genetic characteristics. These
characteristics served to set Melungeons apart from other peoples dwelling in
southeastern North America from the 1500's onward.
PHYSICALLY, Melungeons were distinct in appearance from the other major
ethnic groups familiar to persons living in the Southeastern United States
from 1500 onward.
Thus, they would have had observable physical features which served to set
them apart from those whose ancestry was primarily sub-Saharan African, Native
American, or Northern European. From the various historical and contemporary
sources used to describe Melungeon physical features, these would be dark
straight or wavy hair, dark (but not black ) skin, high cheekbones, and
Mediterranean facial features. While some specific Melungeons might vary from these
traits, the overall group appearance would necessarily be physically homogeneous
and distinct from persons in other ethnic groups.
BEHAVIORALLY, Melungeons had distinctive food preparation, food
preference and food consumption practices. They ate some highly spiced foods, did not
consume blood products, did consume onion and leek based vegetables, fried
breads and other items that appear to be somewhat consistent with Mediterranean
ancestry.
Many observed a one year mourning period for deceased loved ones,
buried loved ones on an east-west axis in private burial grounds, gathered in the
cemeteries of their deceased loved ones once a year to re-mound and decorate
their graves, and belonged to the Primitive Baptist religious denomination.
Some of the women wore black hair coverings. Several of the men wore full beards.
Marriages were often performed in the homes of the bride's parents, rather
than in churches.
Melungeons also displayed marked pattterns of endogamy, marrying
cousins, including first cousins, over an extended period of time (in some cases 400
years). These marriage patterns are consistent with historic and contemporary
Sephardic Jewish and Muslim behavior.
Naming patterns also served to demarcate Melungeon ethnicity. Given names included not only 'Old Testament' Hebrew names, BUT ALSO Aramaic, Arabic, non-Biblical Hebrew, Greek, Italian, Spanish
and Portuguese names. These naming patterns are observable from the 1600's onward.
GENETICALLY, Melungeons and their descendants were and are distinctive.
They do not have primarily Northern European, sub-Saharan African, Native
American, or East Asian haplotypes/haplogroups. Intead they primarily carry DNA
patterns typical of the Mediterranean, North Africa, Middle East and some
Central Asian and Indo-Pakistani populations.
Taken as a whole, the most parsimonious explanation for this set of Physical, Behavioral and
Genetic characteristics would appear to be a Sephardic Jewish and Muslim Moorish origin, likely
resulting from the historically documented expulsion of Jews and Muslims from various European,
Mediterranean and Central Asian countries from the 1500's onward, coupled with the establishment of
Spanish, Portuguese, British, French and Dutch settlements in North America post 1500.
It is also very likely that some persons of Melungeon descent would
have some sub-Saharan, Native American, Northern European or other (e.g.,
Roma) ancestry, as well, due to specific instances of exogamous marriage.
Sunday, March 7, 2010
New Play from Daughers of the Legend
Alpha Psi Omega to Debut Appalachian Play
Dr. Sheridan Barker's play "Daughter of the Legend," which is based on the novel by Jesse Stuart will be performed for the first time in Gentry auditorium this spring.(Carson-Newman College)
In the story, a young man named Dave falls in love with a Melungeon girl of mixed descent called Deutsia Huntoon. The play is based on their story of prejudice and the many attempts to overcome it.
http://media.www.orangeandblueonline.com/media/storage/paper1156/news/2010/02/26/News/Alpha.Psi.Omega.To.Debut.Appalachian.Play-3879488.shtml
Nancy
Dr. Sheridan Barker's play "Daughter of the Legend," which is based on the novel by Jesse Stuart will be performed for the first time in Gentry auditorium this spring.(Carson-Newman College)
In the story, a young man named Dave falls in love with a Melungeon girl of mixed descent called Deutsia Huntoon. The play is based on their story of prejudice and the many attempts to overcome it.
http://media.www.orangeandblueonline.com/media/storage/paper1156/news/2010/02/26/News/Alpha.Psi.Omega.To.Debut.Appalachian.Play-3879488.shtml
Nancy
Tuesday, January 26, 2010
The Melungeon_Kin list in the hands of the adversary
And so the BEAT goes on! Who ARE these people? NOT MELUNGEONS!!
The Melungeon Kin list lay dormant for several years until Marie gave over ownership to Tari and that group of folks who think the ONLY Melungeons were those from Newman's Ridge.
Recently a new poster sent an e-mail to the list and I responded that for all intents and purposes the list was dead and suggested she join my Melungeon mailing list.
Tari and a couple of those "Hysterical Melungeons" wrote in testing their membership and asked if they could get the list up and running again.
Tari wrote 'let's try,' and listed the things that the list WOULD NOT WRITE about.
I responded with the following post:
Today's Topics:
1. Re: What NOT to focus on! (NMorri3924@aol.com)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 10:48:54 EST
From: NMorri3924@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MELUNGEON-KIN] What NOT to focus on!
To: melungeon-kin@rootsweb.com
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
In a message dated 1/25/2010 3:04:48 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
melungeon-kin-request@rootsweb.com writes:
"And most importantly we will not focus on those myths that are out there
like diseases, jewish or Turkish ancestry, ectera."
Thanks Tari, I won't write about my opinions that Melungeon descendants
show DNA that coincides with that of Turks in the areas of what used to be
Anatolia. Nor will I write about certain physical features such as the
Anatolian bump or Central Asian Cranial Ridge which are anthropological markers of
certain ancient ancestries.
I also won't mention my own mtDNA which shows input from the area NOW Syria
and which traveled through what is NOW Armenia, Turkey, Greece before
spreading all over Europe. Nor will I write about my Dad's mtDNA which began in
the area NOW Venice, Italy making him a 'cousin' to the famous ICE MAN
found in the Alps several years back and who was thought then to have lived
5,000 years ago.
And just because I am mentioning my Jewish and Turkish and other
Mediterranean ancestries, I will not mention the fact that I have Familial
Mediterranean Fever, an inherited genetic illness that can be FATAL left untreated,
nor any of the other diseases that are appearing amongst Appalachian Mt.
families, Melungeons included.
I also won't mention the fact that my major DNA from ancient times comes
from Guinea-Bissau, Africa, and North African Morrocan Berbers. And yet
everyone in my family that I can find is labeled 'white' whatever that means.
And I won't talk about the fact that I believe all of the ancestries came
together because of a Melungeon connection from a variety of families like
the Belchers of Montgomery Co., VA whom Virginia DeMarce listed in her
notes as 'needing more research, since she felt they were tied to the
Melungeons.
I won't write about my Will Collins for whom I have been searching for over
30 years and who was in the area of far SWVA where known Melungeons lived,
nor will I write about the Remy/Ramey family who were likely Jews who left
Spain during the Inquistion, came to France and flourished and then spread
around the world and were found in the area now Scott Co., VA and over
into KY. DeMarce and others thought they were Melungeons.
I also won't write about my connecting family lines, the Hagers, Sparks,
Musicks and others, almost all of whom I believe had Melungeon 'wives, or
grandmothers.'
So you guys who NOW own a list that used to talk about ALL of these things
want to get it started up again and WHO started this desire to get it going
again? I DID with my post that this list is for all intents and purposes
DEAD. :-) I am the person who focuses on EVERY SINGLE thing that you said we
will NOT focus on, plus more.
Good luck with this list. I hope it works for you. It is not a Melungeon
list.
Love and health in family ties,
Nancy
End of MELUNGEON-KIN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 5 DON'T STOP HERE!!!
Guess what came just NOW????? LOL
"You have been successfully unsubscribed from the MELUNGEON-KIN mailing
list.
If you feel you have received this message in error, please contact
the MELUNGEON-KIN administrator at MELUNGEON-KIN-admin@rootsweb.com.
Sincerely,
The MELUNGEON-KIN List Administrator
MELUNGEON-KIN-admin@rootsweb.com"
And I wrote that I would just rejoin the list under another e-dress! And that this was going UP on my blog and sent to my own mailing list. POWER TO THE PEOPLE or some such phrase! :-)
Love
Nancy
*******************************************
The Melungeon Kin list lay dormant for several years until Marie gave over ownership to Tari and that group of folks who think the ONLY Melungeons were those from Newman's Ridge.
Recently a new poster sent an e-mail to the list and I responded that for all intents and purposes the list was dead and suggested she join my Melungeon mailing list.
Tari and a couple of those "Hysterical Melungeons" wrote in testing their membership and asked if they could get the list up and running again.
Tari wrote 'let's try,' and listed the things that the list WOULD NOT WRITE about.
I responded with the following post:
Today's Topics:
1. Re: What NOT to focus on! (NMorri3924@aol.com)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 10:48:54 EST
From: NMorri3924@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MELUNGEON-KIN] What NOT to focus on!
To: melungeon-kin@rootsweb.com
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
In a message dated 1/25/2010 3:04:48 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
melungeon-kin-request@rootsweb.com writes:
"And most importantly we will not focus on those myths that are out there
like diseases, jewish or Turkish ancestry, ectera."
Thanks Tari, I won't write about my opinions that Melungeon descendants
show DNA that coincides with that of Turks in the areas of what used to be
Anatolia. Nor will I write about certain physical features such as the
Anatolian bump or Central Asian Cranial Ridge which are anthropological markers of
certain ancient ancestries.
I also won't mention my own mtDNA which shows input from the area NOW Syria
and which traveled through what is NOW Armenia, Turkey, Greece before
spreading all over Europe. Nor will I write about my Dad's mtDNA which began in
the area NOW Venice, Italy making him a 'cousin' to the famous ICE MAN
found in the Alps several years back and who was thought then to have lived
5,000 years ago.
And just because I am mentioning my Jewish and Turkish and other
Mediterranean ancestries, I will not mention the fact that I have Familial
Mediterranean Fever, an inherited genetic illness that can be FATAL left untreated,
nor any of the other diseases that are appearing amongst Appalachian Mt.
families, Melungeons included.
I also won't mention the fact that my major DNA from ancient times comes
from Guinea-Bissau, Africa, and North African Morrocan Berbers. And yet
everyone in my family that I can find is labeled 'white' whatever that means.
And I won't talk about the fact that I believe all of the ancestries came
together because of a Melungeon connection from a variety of families like
the Belchers of Montgomery Co., VA whom Virginia DeMarce listed in her
notes as 'needing more research, since she felt they were tied to the
Melungeons.
I won't write about my Will Collins for whom I have been searching for over
30 years and who was in the area of far SWVA where known Melungeons lived,
nor will I write about the Remy/Ramey family who were likely Jews who left
Spain during the Inquistion, came to France and flourished and then spread
around the world and were found in the area now Scott Co., VA and over
into KY. DeMarce and others thought they were Melungeons.
I also won't write about my connecting family lines, the Hagers, Sparks,
Musicks and others, almost all of whom I believe had Melungeon 'wives, or
grandmothers.'
So you guys who NOW own a list that used to talk about ALL of these things
want to get it started up again and WHO started this desire to get it going
again? I DID with my post that this list is for all intents and purposes
DEAD. :-) I am the person who focuses on EVERY SINGLE thing that you said we
will NOT focus on, plus more.
Good luck with this list. I hope it works for you. It is not a Melungeon
list.
Love and health in family ties,
Nancy
End of MELUNGEON-KIN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 5 DON'T STOP HERE!!!
Guess what came just NOW????? LOL
"You have been successfully unsubscribed from the MELUNGEON-KIN mailing
list.
If you feel you have received this message in error, please contact
the MELUNGEON-KIN administrator at MELUNGEON-KIN-admin@rootsweb.com.
Sincerely,
The MELUNGEON-KIN List Administrator
MELUNGEON-KIN-admin@rootsweb.com"
And I wrote that I would just rejoin the list under another e-dress!
Love
Nancy
*******************************************
Sunday, June 21, 2009
"Melungeon Myth"
Janet Crain has posted to both rootsweb and to the 'historical' Melungeon website about the "Melungeon Myth." I am posting this to you all and it will be on my website shortly.
You will also find some research notes on the promising inclusion of the CROATS amongst the Melungeons and the possible connection to Colonial Williamsburg/Jamestown below the following article.
My own personal opinion is that more research needs to be done and that Janet has failed to meet the requirements to prove her proposal.
Janet wrote:
"A persistant rumor has spread all over the Internet that Melungeons descend from the some 300 to 600 Turks and other nationalities said to have been left on Roanoke Island in 1586 by Sir Francis Drake. In truth, there is NO evidence there were any left, much less several hundred."
Brent Kennedy had a THEORY. He never called it a fact. BUT, Brent said he had FOUND such evidence. I have not seen it and Brent is no longer able to reply to posts such as these. And there is NO 'evidence/proof' that they were not left.
Janet wrote:
"Drake was returning home from the sacking of Cartagena when he decided to visit Roanoke and dispose of some of the freed prisoners and Maroons he had acquired during his adventures. He was carrying a human cargo of several hundred. He is said by Ivor Noel Hume in "Virginia Adventures" to have highly inflated the numbers."
I know that Hume became chief archeologist of Colonial Williamsburg in 1957, and has subsequently become the director of the Williamsburg Department of Archeology.
But what I need to know is HOW did Hume KNOW this? What source did he give for this information, what data he has he found in his work or perhaps was it just his OPINION? I would want to respect that opinion, but I need more information to do so.
You said:
"This voyage is of great interest to Melungeon researchers because this voyage in 1586 is the basis of the Turkish connection first started by Brent Kennedy's book; Melungeons; an Untold Story of Ethnic Cleansing. It is, in fact, the keystone of the Turkish Connection Theory. Remove it and the rest crumbles. That is what I propose to do."
I am glad you called it a THEORY. If you have not written MORE than what I have read here your proposal has failed. You are basing YOUR OPINION on something from one man perhaps two, as far as I can see and you list no other sources of data to support your proposal. What on site research have you done? And no I haven't done any either, other than visiting there.
History tells us that MOST of what you continued to write in this article is true.
And we do know that the Turks, 'known to have been with Drake, were apparently better safeguarded. They were valuable as trade for English prisoners languishing in Ottoman prisons. Some 100 Turks were, in fact, ransomed to their homeland.'
You said: "So, just who might have gone ashore before the storm hit? Many people have a hard time visualizing the scene at Roanoke."
I have been there and done that and while it may have been "laborious offloading of men and supplies to shore boats and threading through the one pass, Fernando Pass, and the treacherous shoals and currents made worse at times by Northwestern winds blowing directly into the Bay," that is NOT enough to stop some of those folks from 'offloading.' We read what the conditions were like. And I know that with those storms, I personally would have found some way to go ashore, supplies or no, rather than to take my chance of going down. Just a personal opinion here.
You wrote: "I am saying this to lay to rest the idea of a huge number of the passengers dis-embarquing and perhaps being caught off guard by the storms and staying behind. Hume and David Beers Quinn are the authorities on this period and both say there were no Turks left. Hume says no one else, Quinn, at most a very few."
First I do not know of ANYONE who has said that there were HUGE NUMBERS disembarking and Quinn's 'very few' would have been enough to leave quite a few genes behind.
You asked:
"Left with no supplies on the Outer Banks what would they have found to eat? If the Indians had not killed them, they would have starved."
In situations of starvation we have plenty of evidence that they well MIGHT have eaten each other! I personally do NOT believe that happened, but my supposition is just as valid as yours that they would have starved or been killed.
AND re the following statement:
"It should be noted that the Native Americans communicated by a"grapevine" so efficient that Indians in Canada knew of happenings in the Virginias. No mention of any dumped off passengers was ever made."
HOW do you know this? There was no written Native American language at that time!
Again:
"Additionally, there was plenty of room for these passengers to sail with Drake. Hundreds had died in the battles in Florida, from fevers, and in the hurricane. Drake was returning with more ships than he left with, having captured many. And they would have furnished badly needed labor to sail these ships back to England."
Yes, they MIGHT have but you do not have any PROOF of this statement.
etc..... " it is highly unlikely Drake would have taken such actions."
In your OPINION.
Ivor Noel Hume says:
"Thus the hurricane of June 1586 may have ripped away the first page from the history of blacks in English America."
PLEASE note Hume's use of the word MAY - Hume did not say this is EXACTLY what happened because he did not have any data to support this other than his opinion, which I do respect but EACH of us is capable of error.
You wrote:
"A cruel and terrible fate for these forgotten people that historians of the time did not consider important enough to even record their fate."
And yes, indeed, for SOME of them this was likely a terrible fate.. But the fact that these people were UNIMPORTANT, and their fate wasn't recorded, leads me to believe there is still more left to be discovered, whether it be records or DNA or archaeological artifacts. All research is NOT done and your proposal has FAILED to meet the proof needed that would make your OPINION a true fact.
I appreciate theories. They help me think. I have many theories. It is the FACTS that are important. I keep trying to gather facts.
Continue scrolling down for the information on the CROATS and the Melungeons.
Love and health in family ties,
Nancy
You will also find some research notes on the promising inclusion of the CROATS amongst the Melungeons and the possible connection to Colonial Williamsburg/Jamestown below the following article.
My own personal opinion is that more research needs to be done and that Janet has failed to meet the requirements to prove her proposal.
Janet wrote:
"A persistant rumor has spread all over the Internet that Melungeons descend from the some 300 to 600 Turks and other nationalities said to have been left on Roanoke Island in 1586 by Sir Francis Drake. In truth, there is NO evidence there were any left, much less several hundred."
Brent Kennedy had a THEORY. He never called it a fact. BUT, Brent said he had FOUND such evidence. I have not seen it and Brent is no longer able to reply to posts such as these. And there is NO 'evidence/proof' that they were not left.
Janet wrote:
"Drake was returning home from the sacking of Cartagena when he decided to visit Roanoke and dispose of some of the freed prisoners and Maroons he had acquired during his adventures. He was carrying a human cargo of several hundred. He is said by Ivor Noel Hume in "Virginia Adventures" to have highly inflated the numbers."
I know that Hume became chief archeologist of Colonial Williamsburg in 1957, and has subsequently become the director of the Williamsburg Department of Archeology.
But what I need to know is HOW did Hume KNOW this? What source did he give for this information, what data he has he found in his work or perhaps was it just his OPINION? I would want to respect that opinion, but I need more information to do so.
You said:
"This voyage is of great interest to Melungeon researchers because this voyage in 1586 is the basis of the Turkish connection first started by Brent Kennedy's book; Melungeons; an Untold Story of Ethnic Cleansing. It is, in fact, the keystone of the Turkish Connection Theory. Remove it and the rest crumbles. That is what I propose to do."
I am glad you called it a THEORY. If you have not written MORE than what I have read here your proposal has failed. You are basing YOUR OPINION on something from one man perhaps two, as far as I can see and you list no other sources of data to support your proposal. What on site research have you done? And no I haven't done any either, other than visiting there.
History tells us that MOST of what you continued to write in this article is true.
And we do know that the Turks, 'known to have been with Drake, were apparently better safeguarded. They were valuable as trade for English prisoners languishing in Ottoman prisons. Some 100 Turks were, in fact, ransomed to their homeland.'
You said: "So, just who might have gone ashore before the storm hit? Many people have a hard time visualizing the scene at Roanoke."
I have been there and done that and while it may have been "laborious offloading of men and supplies to shore boats and threading through the one pass, Fernando Pass, and the treacherous shoals and currents made worse at times by Northwestern winds blowing directly into the Bay," that is NOT enough to stop some of those folks from 'offloading.' We read what the conditions were like. And I know that with those storms, I personally would have found some way to go ashore, supplies or no, rather than to take my chance of going down. Just a personal opinion here.
You wrote: "I am saying this to lay to rest the idea of a huge number of the passengers dis-embarquing and perhaps being caught off guard by the storms and staying behind. Hume and David Beers Quinn are the authorities on this period and both say there were no Turks left. Hume says no one else, Quinn, at most a very few."
First I do not know of ANYONE who has said that there were HUGE NUMBERS disembarking and Quinn's 'very few' would have been enough to leave quite a few genes behind.
You asked:
"Left with no supplies on the Outer Banks what would they have found to eat? If the Indians had not killed them, they would have starved."
In situations of starvation we have plenty of evidence that they well MIGHT have eaten each other! I personally do NOT believe that happened, but my supposition is just as valid as yours that they would have starved or been killed.
AND re the following statement:
"It should be noted that the Native Americans communicated by a"grapevine" so efficient that Indians in Canada knew of happenings in the Virginias. No mention of any dumped off passengers was ever made."
HOW do you know this? There was no written Native American language at that time!
Again:
"Additionally, there was plenty of room for these passengers to sail with Drake. Hundreds had died in the battles in Florida, from fevers, and in the hurricane. Drake was returning with more ships than he left with, having captured many. And they would have furnished badly needed labor to sail these ships back to England."
Yes, they MIGHT have but you do not have any PROOF of this statement.
etc..... " it is highly unlikely Drake would have taken such actions."
In your OPINION.
Ivor Noel Hume says:
"Thus the hurricane of June 1586 may have ripped away the first page from the history of blacks in English America."
PLEASE note Hume's use of the word MAY - Hume did not say this is EXACTLY what happened because he did not have any data to support this other than his opinion, which I do respect but EACH of us is capable of error.
You wrote:
"A cruel and terrible fate for these forgotten people that historians of the time did not consider important enough to even record their fate."
And yes, indeed, for SOME of them this was likely a terrible fate.. But the fact that these people were UNIMPORTANT, and their fate wasn't recorded, leads me to believe there is still more left to be discovered, whether it be records or DNA or archaeological artifacts. All research is NOT done and your proposal has FAILED to meet the proof needed that would make your OPINION a true fact.
I appreciate theories. They help me think. I have many theories. It is the FACTS that are important. I keep trying to gather facts.
Continue scrolling down for the information on the CROATS and the Melungeons.
Love and health in family ties,
Nancy
Monday, May 25, 2009
Croats and Melungeons
Croatia and Croatians and the Lost Colony 1585-1590 (with connections to the Melungeons)
by Adam S. Eterovich
Ragusan Press
San Carlos, California
copyright 2003
Some notes from the above mentioned book, plus some notes that Evelyn Orr, noted Melungeon Researcher, had been researching on the Croatians. Both she and Brent Kennedy thought that more research should be done on these folks but Evelyn did not have time, I was interested, so she gave me her notes. I have not had time to do anything with them either. Going over some of these noted I found the following:
Some research she quotes comes from Charles L. Prazak from what is noted as the
Carologue, Summer 1993 Journal
Prazak is a resident (at that time) of Berwyn, Ill, a retired teacher, who has done graduate work in Linguistics and Literature. Apparently he passed away and his daughter sent some of his research to Evelyn. She said he taught among other things English as a Second Language and had had Croatian students. He referenced other researchers in his work. Just SCANNING thru these papers I found the following notes:
April 2000 Notes for Brent and Carroll - Prazak Research - deceased March 1997
Prazak noted: "Louis Adamic article in SVETU J(Y)ugo-Slavian Magazine, April 1992 subject - 5 ships from Dubrovnic, Croatia 1449 - 3 return and tell of 2 ships wrecked in large bay. Adamic believed to be Chespeke - plans for rescue abandoned because of upcoming war with Turks. This Adamic article, and original documents need to be found. 1995 SVTU defunct for several years."
Another note:
Prazak himself refers to two more voyages from Croatia 1470 and 1530. Roanoke given as both places of landing. (SAYS) "I did not catch the source in his papers. May have from letters with Vincent Sinovic, 1995 or the Adamic research .... Needs to be pursued."
Another note:
Letter to Roundtree, Oct 28, 1995, he mentions Brent Kennedy's tribe traced in his book. The melungeons, I showed him; "that melun, with no respelling is the Croat word for GNOME, and zeljan prounced ZHEOYN, means Desirous, or devoted to reaching goals. Kennedy will cite my material in his new edition of his book
(SO, we have another possibility for the meaning of Melungeon and you know I like this one better than some of the others - Melungeons were noted as being small:-)
From another page Prazak notes:
Powhatan Family names:
Matoaka - Capt John Smith spelling
Matorka, in Croatian means "Big Little Girl", a nickname used in Croat families today.
Pocahantas - Smith spelling - in Croatian means "Little Flirt"
At age 14, she was named Amonate, Croatian-Latin for amo, love, plus nate, birth or being born.She was thus called "Born of Love' and this same endearment is also common in Croatian families today.
Prazak speaks of his article "Croatians in America Before Columbus: 1449" gives no indication where published. Writes inquiry to the Georgia Journal with incontrovertible etymological proofs, that scores of unmistakenly clear lexical specimens that attest to the accuracy of revelations made by Jugo-Slav author Louis Adamic regarding a trans-Atlantic expeditionary fleet of five Croatian-Damascan ships as recorded in the archives of 1449 at Triest and Dubrovnic.
Prazak believe many Indian place names/words were influenced by Croats. Gives examples
Article notes"
Jugo-Slav writer Louis Adamic found in the archives of the old Croatian-Dalmatian ports of Dubrovnic, and at Trieste, records of a trans-oceanic voyage dated 1449 A.D. by five shiploads of Croatians, of which two shiploads stayed abroad. He pursued the matter, sought out a small number of words and names from the area of the Lost Colony of Roanoke 1589 that are undeniably Croatian words, starting with the name "Croatoan" carved on a wood plaque at the site of John White's ill-fated colony. It was obviously not carved by an Englishman, he pointed out, but by an Indian who wrote Serbo-Croatian: It was spelled
KROAT (OMEGA SYMBOL) AN. The long "O" in S-C is the omega of the Cyrillic alphabet.
Prazak says he has found additional evidence to prove beyond all doubt that a Croatian population, at least a population including Croatians, pre-existed in America when Columbus arrived. Much proof appears to be lexical.
Prazak quotes Gunnar Thompson - American Discovery: Our Multicultural Inheritance
(1994) - speaks of his -Prazak's, work being disdained for over 20 years by editors addicted to traditionalism and Columbus-adulation. Speaks of his South Carolina article printed by Carologue and 2 other articles scheduled to be printed. Says Gunnar Thompsons, does NOT discount his (Prazak's) linguistic evidences as mere accidents. - Says Croatians Were The Discoverers of America. (This is a long piece and I have not read the rest of it. I hope to add more notes as time allows.)
Prazak also quotes David Beers Quinn for the English discovery of America in 1481 - new letters found in 1956 by Dr.Louis Andre Vigneras from an English merchant John Day written in Spanish to a Spanish official called Almirante Mayor whom Vigneras thought was Columbus.(this too is a long article and I have not read the rest of it.)
He mentions Adam Eterovich, the author of the book I have. - said sent him some materials. Adam and Brent had corresponded for some time.
From Eterovich's book; p.102/103
Melengi-Melingoi-Melungeon
quotes the "so-called Melungeons were discovered in the Appalachian Mts in 1654 by English explorers and were described as being 'dark-skinned with fine European features.'
Says: Melingi is a Slavic tribe in the mountains of the Peloponnesus which unlike most of the other Slavs of Greece did not become hellenized but retained its identity and remained Slavic-speaking throughout the Middle Ages into the Ottoman Turkish period.
More notes on this to come!
by Adam S. Eterovich
Ragusan Press
San Carlos, California
copyright 2003
Some notes from the above mentioned book, plus some notes that Evelyn Orr, noted Melungeon Researcher, had been researching on the Croatians. Both she and Brent Kennedy thought that more research should be done on these folks but Evelyn did not have time, I was interested, so she gave me her notes. I have not had time to do anything with them either. Going over some of these noted I found the following:
Some research she quotes comes from Charles L. Prazak from what is noted as the
Carologue, Summer 1993 Journal
Prazak is a resident (at that time) of Berwyn, Ill, a retired teacher, who has done graduate work in Linguistics and Literature. Apparently he passed away and his daughter sent some of his research to Evelyn. She said he taught among other things English as a Second Language and had had Croatian students. He referenced other researchers in his work. Just SCANNING thru these papers I found the following notes:
April 2000 Notes for Brent and Carroll - Prazak Research - deceased March 1997
Prazak noted: "Louis Adamic article in SVETU J(Y)ugo-Slavian Magazine, April 1992 subject - 5 ships from Dubrovnic, Croatia 1449 - 3 return and tell of 2 ships wrecked in large bay. Adamic believed to be Chespeke - plans for rescue abandoned because of upcoming war with Turks. This Adamic article, and original documents need to be found. 1995 SVTU defunct for several years."
Another note:
Prazak himself refers to two more voyages from Croatia 1470 and 1530. Roanoke given as both places of landing. (SAYS) "I did not catch the source in his papers. May have from letters with Vincent Sinovic, 1995 or the Adamic research .... Needs to be pursued."
Another note:
Letter to Roundtree, Oct 28, 1995, he mentions Brent Kennedy's tribe traced in his book. The melungeons, I showed him; "that melun, with no respelling is the Croat word for GNOME, and zeljan prounced ZHEOYN, means Desirous, or devoted to reaching goals. Kennedy will cite my material in his new edition of his book
(SO, we have another possibility for the meaning of Melungeon and you know I like this one better than some of the others - Melungeons were noted as being small:-)
From another page Prazak notes:
Powhatan Family names:
Matoaka - Capt John Smith spelling
Matorka, in Croatian means "Big Little Girl", a nickname used in Croat families today.
Pocahantas - Smith spelling - in Croatian means "Little Flirt"
At age 14, she was named Amonate, Croatian-Latin for amo, love, plus nate, birth or being born.She was thus called "Born of Love' and this same endearment is also common in Croatian families today.
Prazak speaks of his article "Croatians in America Before Columbus: 1449" gives no indication where published. Writes inquiry to the Georgia Journal with incontrovertible etymological proofs, that scores of unmistakenly clear lexical specimens that attest to the accuracy of revelations made by Jugo-Slav author Louis Adamic regarding a trans-Atlantic expeditionary fleet of five Croatian-Damascan ships as recorded in the archives of 1449 at Triest and Dubrovnic.
Prazak believe many Indian place names/words were influenced by Croats. Gives examples
Article notes"
Jugo-Slav writer Louis Adamic found in the archives of the old Croatian-Dalmatian ports of Dubrovnic, and at Trieste, records of a trans-oceanic voyage dated 1449 A.D. by five shiploads of Croatians, of which two shiploads stayed abroad. He pursued the matter, sought out a small number of words and names from the area of the Lost Colony of Roanoke 1589 that are undeniably Croatian words, starting with the name "Croatoan" carved on a wood plaque at the site of John White's ill-fated colony. It was obviously not carved by an Englishman, he pointed out, but by an Indian who wrote Serbo-Croatian: It was spelled
KROAT (OMEGA SYMBOL) AN. The long "O" in S-C is the omega of the Cyrillic alphabet.
Prazak says he has found additional evidence to prove beyond all doubt that a Croatian population, at least a population including Croatians, pre-existed in America when Columbus arrived. Much proof appears to be lexical.
Prazak quotes Gunnar Thompson - American Discovery: Our Multicultural Inheritance
(1994) - speaks of his -Prazak's, work being disdained for over 20 years by editors addicted to traditionalism and Columbus-adulation. Speaks of his South Carolina article printed by Carologue and 2 other articles scheduled to be printed. Says Gunnar Thompsons, does NOT discount his (Prazak's) linguistic evidences as mere accidents. - Says Croatians Were The Discoverers of America. (This is a long piece and I have not read the rest of it. I hope to add more notes as time allows.)
Prazak also quotes David Beers Quinn for the English discovery of America in 1481 - new letters found in 1956 by Dr.Louis Andre Vigneras from an English merchant John Day written in Spanish to a Spanish official called Almirante Mayor whom Vigneras thought was Columbus.(this too is a long article and I have not read the rest of it.)
He mentions Adam Eterovich, the author of the book I have. - said sent him some materials. Adam and Brent had corresponded for some time.
From Eterovich's book; p.102/103
Melengi-Melingoi-Melungeon
quotes the "so-called Melungeons were discovered in the Appalachian Mts in 1654 by English explorers and were described as being 'dark-skinned with fine European features.'
Says: Melingi is a Slavic tribe in the mountains of the Peloponnesus which unlike most of the other Slavs of Greece did not become hellenized but retained its identity and remained Slavic-speaking throughout the Middle Ages into the Ottoman Turkish period.
More notes on this to come!
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